Do you mean top speed or something else?
/Johan
/Johan
johann
Hi LamboUK,
I don't know what your source is for the 0-60mp/h figures, but for the B10 biturbo you are wrong. The E34 ///M5 3.6 can do 0-60mp/h in 5.6, but the B10 biturbo is much faster. The figures for the E39 ///M5 could be right though.
E39 ///M5
0-100km/h 5.2sec
top speed 250km/h
E34 B10 biturbo (from Alpina automobile meisterwerke catalog 1993)
0-100km/h 5.2sec
top speed: >291 km/h
By the way, these test figures where also tested by several German car magzines such as AMS.
In the real world, both cars should be allmost equal in performance, but since Alpina is allways very conservative in their specifications, I think that a well kept B10 biturbo is a bit faster than the E39 ///M5.
With best regards,
Raymond
[This message has been edited by raymond woertman (edited 14 May 2001).]
I don't know what your source is for the 0-60mp/h figures, but for the B10 biturbo you are wrong. The E34 ///M5 3.6 can do 0-60mp/h in 5.6, but the B10 biturbo is much faster. The figures for the E39 ///M5 could be right though.
E39 ///M5
0-100km/h 5.2sec
top speed 250km/h
E34 B10 biturbo (from Alpina automobile meisterwerke catalog 1993)
0-100km/h 5.2sec
top speed: >291 km/h
By the way, these test figures where also tested by several German car magzines such as AMS.
In the real world, both cars should be allmost equal in performance, but since Alpina is allways very conservative in their specifications, I think that a well kept B10 biturbo is a bit faster than the E39 ///M5.
With best regards,
Raymond
[This message has been edited by raymond woertman (edited 14 May 2001).]
Hi Johann,
It seems that we are disagreeing on some points recently. No hard feelings on that, we just disagree on that.
If you compare the performance figures of both cars, you have to admit that they are allmost equal. It is true that an unlimited E39 ///M5 can reach 296km/h and with the Kelleners sport module, I believe 301km/h. I must have the Sport Auto test of this somewhere.
But Alpina has always been conservative with their performance figures and the >291km/h topspeed should be reachable in any case. I don't doubt that a well kept B10 biturbo can reach speeds over 300km/h also, so at least both cars are comparable.
Given the higher torque of the B10 biturbo and the few 10kg's lower weight, I expect the B10 biturbo to be a bit faster.
If I am correctly both B10 biturbo and E39 ///M5 do the 0-200km/h in less than 20sec. AMS measured 19.2sec for B10 biturbo in this discipline, while the E39 ///M5 should also be capable of doing that also.
This test was performed in 1991 when AMS compared the B10 biturbo vs the E34 ///M5, vs the MB 500E vs the Lotus Omega.
In this AMS test, the B10 biturbo reached a top speed of 288km/h, but since this is less than Alpina's own specification, I think something could be wrong with the test car though, and my assumption is that an average B10 biturbo must be capable of doing the 0-200km/h in less then 19sec.
If any of you want a copy of this test, Email me directly at woertman@locamation.nl
With best regards,
Raymond
[This message has been edited by raymond woertman (edited 14 May 2001).]
It seems that we are disagreeing on some points recently. No hard feelings on that, we just disagree on that.
If you compare the performance figures of both cars, you have to admit that they are allmost equal. It is true that an unlimited E39 ///M5 can reach 296km/h and with the Kelleners sport module, I believe 301km/h. I must have the Sport Auto test of this somewhere.
But Alpina has always been conservative with their performance figures and the >291km/h topspeed should be reachable in any case. I don't doubt that a well kept B10 biturbo can reach speeds over 300km/h also, so at least both cars are comparable.
Given the higher torque of the B10 biturbo and the few 10kg's lower weight, I expect the B10 biturbo to be a bit faster.
If I am correctly both B10 biturbo and E39 ///M5 do the 0-200km/h in less than 20sec. AMS measured 19.2sec for B10 biturbo in this discipline, while the E39 ///M5 should also be capable of doing that also.
This test was performed in 1991 when AMS compared the B10 biturbo vs the E34 ///M5, vs the MB 500E vs the Lotus Omega.
In this AMS test, the B10 biturbo reached a top speed of 288km/h, but since this is less than Alpina's own specification, I think something could be wrong with the test car though, and my assumption is that an average B10 biturbo must be capable of doing the 0-200km/h in less then 19sec.
If any of you want a copy of this test, Email me directly at woertman@locamation.nl
With best regards,
Raymond
[This message has been edited by raymond woertman (edited 14 May 2001).]
Raymond,
If we didn't disagree on things there wouldn't be any fun!
![Image]()
First I must say that I really find The B10 biturbo to be an amazing car. That said I must continue the discussion.
The E39 M5 does 0-200 in 17.8 s and that a car is not neccessarily faster becaus it has more torque and less weight, I think effect (hp) has something to do with it.
![Image]()
I think we can agree that these cars are two very fast cars and that the performance is pretty similar, right?
![Image]()
Another Alpina that is amzaing is the B8 which is incredibly fast! I want one!
![Image]()
Cheers,
/Johan
Edited the 0-200 time, mixed up figures.
[This message has been edited by johann (edited 14 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by johann (edited 14 May 2001).]
If we didn't disagree on things there wouldn't be any fun!
First I must say that I really find The B10 biturbo to be an amazing car. That said I must continue the discussion.
The E39 M5 does 0-200 in 17.8 s and that a car is not neccessarily faster becaus it has more torque and less weight, I think effect (hp) has something to do with it.
I think we can agree that these cars are two very fast cars and that the performance is pretty similar, right?
Another Alpina that is amzaing is the B8 which is incredibly fast! I want one!
Cheers,
/Johan
Edited the 0-200 time, mixed up figures.
[This message has been edited by johann (edited 14 May 2001).]
[This message has been edited by johann (edited 14 May 2001).]
Hmm, it depends I think. There are E39 M5 that are really fast and some that are not so fast.
But this weekend I raced againt johan in my M3 3,2 that has 338 HP. I have raced against an Audi RS4 from 120 km/h to 270 km/h and I lost maybe two carlengths during the interval of 180 km/h to 220 km/h but after that it was even. Also raced a F355 and I say at those low speeds it was constant.
With that said, I was really surpised that johann passed me quite easy when at say 150 km/h. And johanns car was faster in acceleration and top speed than a F360. So with the E34 aerodynamics in mind I really doubt that a BiTurbo should be faster in acceleration or speed.
But johanns is not stock, and a stock BiTurbo vs. a E39 M5 could be even in acceleration but I still think that the BiTurbo will be slower in top speed. I have never seen a BiTurbo do over 296 km/h. But it is easy to chip a BiTurbo and then of course it will be faster. Have a look at http://come.to/need4speed for a really fast BiTurbo.
But then you have to compare a modified BiTurbo with a modded E39 M5 and then I think still the E39 M5 wil be faster. And i woukld rather drive an E39 M5 in those speeds.
But the B10 BiTurbo was a truly unbeleivable car when it came. Too bad Alpina have soften in image.
I would like to have the "upcoming" B10 V8 S, right Janne?
![Image]()
![Image]()
![Image]()
But this weekend I raced againt johan in my M3 3,2 that has 338 HP. I have raced against an Audi RS4 from 120 km/h to 270 km/h and I lost maybe two carlengths during the interval of 180 km/h to 220 km/h but after that it was even. Also raced a F355 and I say at those low speeds it was constant.
With that said, I was really surpised that johann passed me quite easy when at say 150 km/h. And johanns car was faster in acceleration and top speed than a F360. So with the E34 aerodynamics in mind I really doubt that a BiTurbo should be faster in acceleration or speed.
But johanns is not stock, and a stock BiTurbo vs. a E39 M5 could be even in acceleration but I still think that the BiTurbo will be slower in top speed. I have never seen a BiTurbo do over 296 km/h. But it is easy to chip a BiTurbo and then of course it will be faster. Have a look at http://come.to/need4speed for a really fast BiTurbo.
But then you have to compare a modified BiTurbo with a modded E39 M5 and then I think still the E39 M5 wil be faster. And i woukld rather drive an E39 M5 in those speeds.
But the B10 BiTurbo was a truly unbeleivable car when it came. Too bad Alpina have soften in image.
I would like to have the "upcoming" B10 V8 S, right Janne?
Hi Johann,
Yep, discussing is fun. Let's keep it a draw about thsi subject.
I have enjoined your story about your visit to the Nordschleife. On July eight, me and several other central European ///M5 owners go to the Nurburgring for a meeting. I want to book the ringtaxi then and right now, allready three other people want to take a ride also. This was only possible because of your "promotion work". Keep up the good work.
BTW: What does Gustav mean with "green frog cars"??
Have fun and drive carefully,
Raymond
Yep, discussing is fun. Let's keep it a draw about thsi subject.
I have enjoined your story about your visit to the Nordschleife. On July eight, me and several other central European ///M5 owners go to the Nurburgring for a meeting. I want to book the ringtaxi then and right now, allready three other people want to take a ride also. This was only possible because of your "promotion work". Keep up the good work.
BTW: What does Gustav mean with "green frog cars"??
Have fun and drive carefully,
Raymond
Raymond,
Maybe I can join you and try to keep up with the Ring-taxi!
![Image]()
Didn't manage do that at all last time. Be in for a real fun experience!
Thanks, I'll try to keep up the work.
![Image]()
Did you tell them about it or did theay actually know about my story?
I'll let Kees or Gustav answer about "green frog cars".
![Image]()
I always drive carefully!
![Image]()
Cheers,
/Johan
PS Do get to ride with Sabine?
Maybe I can join you and try to keep up with the Ring-taxi!
Thanks, I'll try to keep up the work.
Did you tell them about it or did theay actually know about my story?
I'll let Kees or Gustav answer about "green frog cars".
I always drive carefully!
Cheers,
/Johan
PS Do get to ride with Sabine?
Hi Johann,
I have posted the URL of your Nurburgring story on the E34 ///M5 Email forum on yahoogroups. That stimulated some Europeans for wanting to take a ride. Let's face it, DM65 a pop is not expensive. The train to the JungFrau Joch in Grindelwald (Switzerland) costs sfr 150 for one person alone and a helicopter flight over the 4000mtr peaks of the Berner Oberland costs sfr 150 a person also. Riding the Nordschleife with an ///M5 for DM65 is then very cheap.
We would be glad to have you amongst us. Since I am very busy lately, Serge Jeager coordinates the event. He can be reached on: sejaeger@HetNet.nl
Last year we had Holger and Soren as E39 ///M5 owners amongst us. But this year we want some more cars. I'll try to take both my E28 and E34 this year. But I am not sure if the E28 would be ready in time since it needs a Dutch registration first.
Pictures of last year can be seen on:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1406570&a=12888125
With best regards,
Raymond
[This message has been edited by raymond woertman (edited 14 May 2001).]
I have posted the URL of your Nurburgring story on the E34 ///M5 Email forum on yahoogroups. That stimulated some Europeans for wanting to take a ride. Let's face it, DM65 a pop is not expensive. The train to the JungFrau Joch in Grindelwald (Switzerland) costs sfr 150 for one person alone and a helicopter flight over the 4000mtr peaks of the Berner Oberland costs sfr 150 a person also. Riding the Nordschleife with an ///M5 for DM65 is then very cheap.
We would be glad to have you amongst us. Since I am very busy lately, Serge Jeager coordinates the event. He can be reached on: sejaeger@HetNet.nl
Last year we had Holger and Soren as E39 ///M5 owners amongst us. But this year we want some more cars. I'll try to take both my E28 and E34 this year. But I am not sure if the E28 would be ready in time since it needs a Dutch registration first.
Pictures of last year can be seen on:
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumList?u=1406570&a=12888125
With best regards,
Raymond
[This message has been edited by raymond woertman (edited 14 May 2001).]
Gustav was being his usual charming self when discussing any car other than a BMW being fun to drive. Even though I am looking for M series or Alpina, that is not an excuse to drive anything but a BMW...
Just on a seperate note: the weekend racesession in Karlskoga with the Norwegen BMW club was great fun. Even though I did not really have the time to attend due to our launch today, I'm glad I made time. Also, the drive up with Michael in the B6 3.5 and back with Johann in the E39 M5 was a great way to get an idea of the driveability and capabilities of these cars. Both are very impressive in their own way.
The event in Karlskoga was a really eye opener how a track day can be held in a great, relaxed atmosphere and yet really see the cars being used for their intended purpose. Great cars and great people. Thanks again for having us along!
Hi Raymond,
I don't have the magazines now but I believe that AMS, Sport Auto and Road&Track tested the top speed for Biturbo at 288km/h - 291 km/h. Personally any faster than 291 km/h is questionable with 'only' 360ps.
Johann's E39-M5 standard top speed of 296 km/h is believable since it has 400ps stock.
The E34 chassis is also inferior in terms of aerodynamics compared to he E39. Plus I agree with Gustav that at speeds above that the newer chassis is more stable and safer (Johann, you owe me big time here
Currently for the Biturbo's going price of $20-25k plus maybe $5k for regular repair, one can get into the 290km/h club pretty cheap, and still be on the new M5's tail on the Autobahn.
Cheers,
Taffy
Raymond,
Nice pics!
![Image]()
I'll contact Serge to get some more information. I currently don't know if I can attend depending what is happening with the company I work for.
Taffy,
Thanks, I owe you one!
![Image]()
Erik,
I think the cars are very similar and the B7 seems to very capable too. The pics with the meter 320 seems fishy, the indicated load pressure is 1.8 bar! I thought 0.8bar was the max pressure on standar car.
Why not throw in a B8 and a Hartge H50 also?
![Image]()
I have to admit that the M Coupé RS killed my M5 (this time).
![Image]()
Cheers,
/Johan
Nice pics!
I'll contact Serge to get some more information. I currently don't know if I can attend depending what is happening with the company I work for.
Taffy,
Thanks, I owe you one!
Erik,
I think the cars are very similar and the B7 seems to very capable too. The pics with the meter 320 seems fishy, the indicated load pressure is 1.8 bar! I thought 0.8bar was the max pressure on standar car.
Why not throw in a B8 and a Hartge H50 also?
I have to admit that the M Coupé RS killed my M5 (this time).
Cheers,
/Johan
Hi all.
Im a big fan of both the Bi Turbo and the M5.
To decide who are the fastest is not that easy because both are extremly fast, in real life the driver would be the determing factor.
On paper the M5 should be faster, but theori could sometimes be funny.
Tests made of the Bi Turbo is as earlier meantioned on par with the M5, a little slower than the M5 to 125mph ( 200 kph) app ,5 sec.
On the Hockenheim track the difference is only 1( 1,19,5 Bi Turbo and 1,18,5 M5) sec which is quite fantastic when you think of the fact that the M5 is 10 years younger and does not have Turbo, M5 also got better brakes and much better setup,a fact that makes the M5 much easier to drive on a track.
That means that the Bi Turbo has to really on pure power to keep up.
When it comes to top speed I have not seen any tests made of the M5 that confirms 296 kph top speed but I do think it is possible.
On the Bi Turbo I have heard stories about speedos showing 320 and more up to 335 kph at topspeed on stock cars.
Well as much as I love the Bi Turbo I dont belive that this car is capable of much more than 300 kph real speed, so if the stories are true the speedos much be way of target.
I also think the Hp/kg is comparable, Nm/kg is in favour of the Bi Turbo.
What does this ad up to, to my opinion both cars are equaly fast thrue the gears, but if both was driving in topgear in app 140 kph and both floor it, I think the M5 will have big problems keeping up. If I had been lucky enough to have an Bi Turbo I would have been interessted in a race just to see.
On Karlskoga Johann reached app 220 kph on the track, I got max 194 before I had to brake and I think a brakes later than Johan, an B7 also reach 220 and braked very early so I guess 10 kph more could have been possible, but, the problem comparing this figures is that they all is based on the speedo and thats not very reliable. I would buess that the speeedo on the M5 is more accurat than the B7 so we never know before we have some real test instrument or stopwatch.
Ooops this got very long, could not help my selves.
My choice wold be:
M5 for daily fun
Bi Turbo for holiday fun
M Coupe RS for Weekend fun
B7 just for the hell of it......
Erik
---------
M Coupe RS, M5 killer
![Image]()
( right Johann !!! )
Im a big fan of both the Bi Turbo and the M5.
To decide who are the fastest is not that easy because both are extremly fast, in real life the driver would be the determing factor.
On paper the M5 should be faster, but theori could sometimes be funny.
Tests made of the Bi Turbo is as earlier meantioned on par with the M5, a little slower than the M5 to 125mph ( 200 kph) app ,5 sec.
On the Hockenheim track the difference is only 1( 1,19,5 Bi Turbo and 1,18,5 M5) sec which is quite fantastic when you think of the fact that the M5 is 10 years younger and does not have Turbo, M5 also got better brakes and much better setup,a fact that makes the M5 much easier to drive on a track.
That means that the Bi Turbo has to really on pure power to keep up.
When it comes to top speed I have not seen any tests made of the M5 that confirms 296 kph top speed but I do think it is possible.
On the Bi Turbo I have heard stories about speedos showing 320 and more up to 335 kph at topspeed on stock cars.
Well as much as I love the Bi Turbo I dont belive that this car is capable of much more than 300 kph real speed, so if the stories are true the speedos much be way of target.
I also think the Hp/kg is comparable, Nm/kg is in favour of the Bi Turbo.
What does this ad up to, to my opinion both cars are equaly fast thrue the gears, but if both was driving in topgear in app 140 kph and both floor it, I think the M5 will have big problems keeping up. If I had been lucky enough to have an Bi Turbo I would have been interessted in a race just to see.
On Karlskoga Johann reached app 220 kph on the track, I got max 194 before I had to brake and I think a brakes later than Johan, an B7 also reach 220 and braked very early so I guess 10 kph more could have been possible, but, the problem comparing this figures is that they all is based on the speedo and thats not very reliable. I would buess that the speeedo on the M5 is more accurat than the B7 so we never know before we have some real test instrument or stopwatch.
Ooops this got very long, could not help my selves.
My choice wold be:
M5 for daily fun
Bi Turbo for holiday fun
M Coupe RS for Weekend fun
B7 just for the hell of it......
Erik
---------
M Coupe RS, M5 killer
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